Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Welcome to Talking Bach, our monthly podcast all about the greatest composer who ever lived, released on the first Monday of every month.
I'm Madeline Easton, your host and artistic director of Bach Academy Australia.
I'm joined today by Prue Goward, a familiar face and voice to Australians through her distinguished career as a broadcaster, journalist and politician, but also a lifelong fan of Bach and his music.
Over the course of these half hourly podcasts, through the music the Bach Academy will be performing in our concert series, we will be discussing what makes the music of Johann Sebastian Bach so special, the instruments we play and the soloists who. Who join us. Hello, Pooh.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Hello, Madeleine.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Let's start today with Bach Academy's November concert series.
This features the Christmas works of both Bach and Charpentier. The similarities between the two composers are well understood, but I think it's interesting to explore how both composers approach the Christmas season in their writing and their mastery, particularly of word setting.
Now, whilst there's lots to choose from this concert series, we are performing Charpentier's Midnight Mass for Christmas, Messe de Minuit pour Noel, and two of Bach's beautiful advent cantatas, BWV. 62 and 70.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Well, let's start with Charpentier, and you've said that the two composers are often linked, but what is it in particular that links Charpentier with Bach?
[00:01:49] Speaker A: In my opinion, it is his mastery of word setting. And what I mean by that is Charpentier's ability to take a script or a phrase or any kind of libretto or text and write music which suits it so perfectly that it really elevates the meaning of the text to the.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: In the same way that Bach did?
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Yes, in exactly the same way. Now, this is not an easy thing to do by any means, and many composers had tried, but it is much harder than it seems. And it takes a true genius to be able to take a sentence of words and find exactly the right notes in exactly the right order to make those notes sing.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: So did Bach borrow from Charpentier?
[00:02:33] Speaker A: I don't think so. And the reason for that is that charpentier died in 1704 when Bach was only 19 years old.
And whilst Bach was exposed to a lot of French music, I'm not sure he maybe ever heard Charpentier. And you know what? It's impossible to know, sadly.
But wouldn't it be amazing if he had known this music?
[00:02:58] Speaker B: So you just had two composers who independently came to the same conclusions about how to do word setting?
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah, and I would say that they both possessed the natural instinct and pure imaginative Genius to do what they did with words and music.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: So what other composers would stand out as word setting?
[00:03:19] Speaker A: Well, firstly, I would say Purcell, Henry Purcell, the English composer. He had this extraordinary to pare music back to the bare minimum, actually, because his scores aren't complicated in the kind of contrapuntal way that Bach and Charpentier are. And obviously he belonged to the late Renaissance, very, very early baroque. But Purcell had a way of again finding the right notes in the right way in the right order. I beg your pardon. And in a melodic shape which just elevated the meaning. I mean, I'm thinking of Dido and Aeneas, Dido's lament over that beautiful descending chromatic bass line. The fact that Purcell chose that lament or bass line for those words and then just paired the harmony note by note on top, it is pure magic. And that takes an imaginative genius to be able to set those words to music in that way. And then of course, after Purcell comes Monteverdi in Italy. And he was another of the great masters of word setting and really excelled in this department.
And yes, and I don't think there was anybody from Monteverdy until Charpentier. And then after Charpentier, Bach.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: And what about after Bach? Who followed in their footsteps, would you say?
[00:04:43] Speaker A: I would actually say concurrently with Bach, I would put Handel in that same sentence. Except, and apologies to people who this may offend, but I don't think Handel was the greatest word setter in the language of English because it wasn't his first language. And sometimes when you, you know, those of you who have sung the Messiah or other of his oratorios will think, well, hang on, that's not where the word stress is.
So sometimes Handel didn't always get it right. But when he was writing in Italian and German, magnificent. And then after Handel, you would get Mozart and then into the Romantics, Schubert. I mean, the master of word setting in song. And into the future we go.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: And would Schubert admit that he'd been influenced by Bach?
[00:05:26] Speaker A: I don't think any composer who ever lived who came after Bach was not influenced by Bach.
[00:05:33] Speaker B: So have Bach's word settings rules been broken, or do you think they would still stand today?
[00:05:42] Speaker A: I'm not sure there were any rules to be broken, to be honest. If I think about the pure variety of what Bach wrote musically and the text that he used, the. The words in those cantatas and oratorios, they convey every possible human image about the pure variety of what Bach wrote musically. And the text that he used, the words in those cantatas and oratorios, they convey every possible human emotion. They take you completely through one's life, the entire human experience, and the sheer variety of words and subjects that he. If you just take the Matthew Passion, for example, every single recitative uses a different combination of instruments in a different way, in different keys, in different time signatures.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: But the word setting is the same.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: No, not the same at all. It changes all the time according to the meaning of the words. And what is so masterful about Bach is the way that he takes the text and picks music, which totally elevates it in an ever different and ever changing way.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: So would you say that was the main similarity between Charpentier and Bach? Are there others?
[00:06:56] Speaker A: I think the similarities when you're talking about Charpentier in Bach are about elevating the meaning of the words. If I could say one thing, I would say Bach used many more different ways of setting words than Charpentier did. I think Bach had a greater arsenal of tools in his toolbox to set words differently than Charpentier did. But, you know, also, we were a lot further along in time by the time Bach came along and music was developing and changing.
[00:07:28] Speaker B: But back to the word setting, can you give an example of what you would say was outstanding word setting by either Charpentier or Bach?
[00:07:37] Speaker A: Well, there is this one moment in the Charpentier Messe de minuit. It's the middle of the mass. It lands in the credo section. It's the Et incarnatus est. It's one of the most tender, intimate moments where the words talking about, you know, Jesus was or man was made incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. And what Charpentier does in is he understands the tender, intimate nature of the words. And he slows the orchestra down and goes into a beautiful slow triple meter of minims and then instructs the sopranos to float upwards on a beautiful descending scale. It is just beautiful word setting.
Sa.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: Sam.
And a Bach equivalent.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. In the Cantatus BWV 70, which we will be performing in our next concert series, there is a moment in the tenth number of this, which is an aria for bass right before the final chorale, where he really, really lets you have it. And the Germanies schaller knaller letz der schlag welt und himmel gerzu trummern, which means resound, peel, last stroke, world and heaven fall in ruins. And he gets the entire orchestra to literally crack and rend and lightning bolts and thunder, yapapapap just.
J.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: And that, ladies and gentlemen, is word setting. But, Madeleine, now to a very different topic. You have a recital in early December called the Violin From Bark to Bluegrass. What could possibly be the link?
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Well, what could possibly go wrong?
Yes. Well, it's often been a sort of theme throughout my life of thinking of ways to show audiences or maybe give a retrospective of who wrote what for the solo violin. And I've been so lucky to play baroque music. It's given me the chance to learn so much repertoire I otherwise wouldn't have. But I've also been lucky, I think, or it's been a conscious decision of mine really, to never give up my modern violin playing because basically I didn't practice all those years just to give it up, you know, And I do enjoy the odd bit of Tchaikovsky and Brahms and Shostakovich.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: So I've put this recital together to give audiences a retrospective or a sort of a, you know, a taste tester session throughout the centuries of what has been written for the unaccompanied violin.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: And Bieber. You're starting with Bieber, but then you're performing Bach's C Major Sonata BW V1005 for the solo violin.
Why this work and how does it link to Bieber?
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Well, Bieber came first, obviously, and I have absolutely no idea whether Bach ever came across Bieber, but I suspect he would have because Bieber was born in Prague and that's not so far from Germany, actually, so it's not outside the realms of possibility. The other thing about this Biber is that it is a passecata, which is a form of music that Bach knew very, very well. It's similar to the Chacon. Now, Bach wrote his famous D minor Chacon, and I really see the link between Bieber's Passecaglia and Bach's Chacon. They're both very moving pieces of music based on a very similar construction. But I'm not performing the Chacon. I'm performing his C major sonata. Now, why have I chosen this sonata? Well, there's one very good reason, and that is the fugue, which forms the central part of this sonata is built on a religious hymn. It's the only one of his three fugues that he based on a religious subject. And it's that wonderful, wonderful aria Von Himmelho, which is very familiar to anyone in Lutheran German and anyone who knows Bach because he. He used it in countless cantatas and oratorios, but here he uses it in a secular work. But I really, really wanted audiences to hear this religious aspect in the music because Bach was so religious and such a devout man and he wrote all this choral music, but not many people know that that is based on that. And it is also Bach's longest and most complex fugue. In fact, here's a fun fact for you, ladies and gentlemen, that solo violin fugue is the longest fugue he wrote for any instrument. Now isn't that interesting? Why the solo violin for this monumental fugue? And it is monumental, it is eight pages.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: And that takes us of course to the question, which is what has been Bach's influence on solo violin composition ever since?
[00:15:13] Speaker A: I just don't think it is possible to overstate the influence that these six works of Bach, the solo sonatas and partidas, had on everyone.
It is mind blowing contemplating just what a feat of composition these works really were. Let's just start with the fact that he wasn't really a violinist.
Lets start with the fact that he was an organist and a keyboard player.
Now how is it possible for one man to have such intimate knowledge of the violin, to know how all the double stops work and the limitations of the instrument and also managed to create four independent contrapuntal lines moving seamlessly and brilliantly from one to another. And such heartfelt music really from the heart and from the spirit as well.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: So take us from Bach to bluegrass.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Yeah, interesting journey that. Well, the influence, influence these Bach works had on everybody was very, very profound.
Let's just take Bartok for example. He wrote a solo sonata with a big fugue in it influenced by Bach. Isai wrote six sonatas influenced by Bach and Bach really showed the world what was possible and he catapulted violin technique right into the future.
And what else am I playing in this program? I am playing a piece of Charles de Beriot, the French romantic composer. Wonderful improvisation which uses a lot of the techniques in those solo Bach sonatas. I am playing part of the Prokofiev solo sonata, which is wonderful, energetic piece. I am playing one of my father's pieces, one of his visions for solo violin. And for those of you who didn't know my father's music or don't, his favourite composer was Bach. And finally I will be performing Paganini's Caprice number 24.
Now I chose this piece because it's amazing, but also Paganini's Stradivarius was called El Diablo or the Devil. And it's funny how often the violin has been linked to the devil. What do you think?
[00:17:13] Speaker B: Well, I suppose it's such a strange instrument, isn't it has such strange sounds as well as wonderful.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. But so many composers through time have sort of made that link between the violin and the devil. And I don't know what that says about us violin players, but I don't know. Stravinsky wrote his Soldier's Tale, which is that sort of wonderful Faustian story of the soldier meeting the devil along the way, and the soldier selling the devil his violin, which turned out to be his soul.
And it's funny. And then when you get to bluegrass, you get things like the Devil Went down to Georgia, that fabulous piece of music, and there's all sorts of fun.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Will there really be bluegrass in this? In this recital?
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Well, you'll have to come and find out.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: All right. Well, professional violinists, I want to say that Bach's works were actually never designed to be performed because of their sheer difficulty.
You wouldn't agree with that?
[00:18:08] Speaker A: I kind of see where they're coming from. I do. Very much so. Because even for extremely good modern violinists, with the help of all that scaffolding, the shoulder rest and the chin rest that they often have, even they find it next to impossible to get their fingers around some of these. So I do understand that sense.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: It's the physical difficulty of holding the violin that they're referencing and stretching the
[00:18:30] Speaker A: chords that, you know, they take you way out of your block position on a violin.
But I sort of disagree, actually.
I have worked very, very hard over many decades to get those Bach sonatas and partitas in my fingers and perform them over and over and over again. And they change you.
They really do. They change you physically and emotionally and mentally and all for the better. They take you to a different place. They take audiences to a different place. And I think, yes, they are next to impossible to perform, but they are worth it. And somehow I think Bach thought that, too.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Well, Madeleine, talking about the physical difficulties of playing Bach and the strength in your fingers and your shoulder, tell us about your physical difficulties, because you've had some very bad luck this year.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes, it wasn't my finest moment.
Yes, unfortunately, I did trip on an uneven paving stone and fall into the street, broke my arm and gave myself a concussion in a very dramatic fashion.
And it took a good couple of months of healing and rebuilding to get back to a stage where I could even contemplate playing these works.
It was a long road back, but I decided.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: So in two months, you had lost a condition in your shoulder and your fingers?
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. I lost all my muscle tone. And everyone said, your arm's really skinny. And I said, yes, I know I have no muscle on it anymore. And not just the arm. It was the sides of my hands, the muscles around my fingers and in between the fingers, and all of that. It had all sort of wasted away.
And what I did was I found a fabulous hand specialist who gave me lots of exercises, banded exercises to stretch the fingers apart and build up the muscles inside the hand, and lots of grip exercises to build up my grip again, and arm and elbow strengthening exercises. And I did all of that in conjunction with giving myself a chance to really reset my violin playing.
So I took my baroque violin, put it on my collarbone, and actually, no even going back. Before I even did that, I sort of started by shaking my body out, getting rid of any tension at all, and just raising my arms into playing position and feeling how my muscles felt to even be in playing position without a violin. And I thought, which muscles am I using to do that? But more importantly, which ones am I not using?
So I lifted my arms up and got really comfortable with that and shook out any tension in my shoulder, back, and neck. And when that felt comfortable and there was no pain in my left elbow, no twisting, no aching or anything like that, then I felt comfortable to actually hold a violin.
So up came the violin and the bow, and I just held it there until my arms got used to holding the violin in that position.
And after a couple of days of doing that, I decided to put down one finger.
And all the time I had to keep telling myself, do not use any muscles you do not need.
Because even in my teaching, I see students using a billion muscles that they really don't need to play the violin. And we have to be really Zen about this. When we're playing instruments, we have to make sure we don't use any muscles we don't need. Because if you're playing for hours and hours on end, you get very tired and you get injured.
So it's extremely important to pair everything back to only what you need.
And so I put down one finger and then another finger and then another finger, all the while relaxing into my sound from a bow perspective as well. Then I would work that into other strings and work through first position, all the while building up the time I was spending on the instrument by only one minute at a time, doing it very incrementally.
And so I actually, weirdly, the massive silver lining of the entire situation has been rebuilding my playing from a point of absolute relaxation.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: So from a terrible accident, you would say you've actually grown and improved as a performer, as a player.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I have. And I gave that recital last week up in Brisbane for the International German Week and I think I played better than I ever have.
Hurrah.
[00:22:55] Speaker B: But it could easily have been the end of your career.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: I know. It was so frightening. It was so frightening in that first week not knowing what the situation was. I do not wish that on anyone. That dreaded fear of oh my gosh, am I ever going to be able to play again?
Sa.
And that was an example of my playing a few weeks ago, 10 weeks after breaking my arm. I've been very lucky and that's it for this month's episode of Talking Bach. But there is always more to talk about, which we will do in these regular podcasts each month. You will also hear from either one of our Bach Academy musicians, a guest artist, or a Bach specialist of some kind about his music and the art of music making.
Bach's music has inspired us for centuries and still has so much to teach us.
So if you've enjoyed this episode, please like share and follow the podcast and leave us a review and subscribe. It really helps others find us and if there is a topic you would like to hear more about, please let us know.
Don't forget to Visit our website, bachacademyaustralia.com au and social media to keep up to date with our activities.
My grateful thanks go to our General Manager Tim Matthies, Technical Producer Andy Scott, and Podcast Series Editor Prue Goward for bringing this to you.
May you enjoy a great November. We look forward to having you join us again on the first Monday of December for our final podcast of the year where we will focus on the Christmas Oratorio performed of course, through the Christian season of Advent and Beyond into the 12 days of Christmas. I hope you can also join us for one of our performances.
I'm Madeline Easton, leaving you with this thought about Bach from the one and only Douglas Adams.
Beethoven tells you what it's like to be Beethoven, and Mozart tells you what it's like to be human.
Bach tells you what it's like to be the universe.
Sa.
