The Art of Violin

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam. [00:00:33] Speaker B: Welcome to this episode of Talking Bach, a podcast all about Johann Sebastian Bach, hosted by me, Madeline Easton, the artistic director of Bach Academy Australia. This podcast is all about the art of violin, which is the title of our next concert series coming up very soon in September. This podcast is all about what the violin means as an instrument and how composers have taken it from the very beginnings of its inception right the way through to the very, very, very top of the musical table. It is the number one instrument of choice for composers in terms of solo instruments, and has been since its invention. Our next program features three violinists, two of which are my principal violinists, Simone Slattery and Raphael Font. Good afternoon. Welcome to Talking Bach. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Thanks, Maddie. [00:01:28] Speaker C: Hi, Marty. Thanks for having us. [00:01:30] Speaker B: It's great to have you both here. Thank you so much for joining me. And I'm really excited to talk about what this program means to us as violinists, because we all are violinists. So I shall open the floor to the both of you by asking you, what is the art of violin? And what does it mean to you both? What does that sentence actually mean to you? So I'll throw it over to you first, Simone. [00:01:53] Speaker A: Oh, the art of the violin, I mean, I guess it could mean so many different things and would be quite an individual thing for every person, every violinist in the world. I guess for me, it would be about what it is I love about the violin the most, and that is the expressive possibilities of this incredible instrument that we play. I love the fact that the violin can be virtuosic and flashy, but also intimate and subtle. I love that it can be loud and angry and harsh sounding, but also incredibly sweet and vocal. And so when we have an instrument like this at our disposal, we have this incredible plethora of sounds and emotions we can conjure with it. And that is both, you know, an incredible musical gift for us, but also, I guess, our challenge as violinists to really utilize this instrument to its fullest capacity. And that is where the art of the violin comes in. You know, how do we make the most of this incredible instrument, this. This sort of perfect craft that was developed all those hundreds of years ago that we are still playing in its original form more or less today. How do we do it justice? So the art of the violin for me is about, I guess, in essence, being as expressive as possible with this essentially piece of wood and some gut strings and some horse hair. How do we bring it to life? And, yeah, that is. That is different for every violinist in the world, but for me, yeah, the art of the violin is about really making this instrument sing to its full potential. [00:03:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it really is an instrument with so much expressive capacity, isn't it? And when you ask people or read about the violin as an instrument, everybody always says it's great because it sounds like the human voice. It's got that vocal quality and it is as similar to the human voice than any other instrument. [00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's vocal, but also it can be so many different things. It's not just that sweet. People think of violin. I think it's like the lark ascending, this nice legato line. [00:04:06] Speaker C: The Hollywood soundtrack. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But I think what I love about the violin is that it can also make these harsh, very percussive sounds. And if we don't ask it to do all these different things, it could be kind of monotone in a way, but we have the potential to ask it to do all these different things. And that's. That's so cool. [00:04:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. What do you think, Raf? [00:04:30] Speaker C: I love what Simone said. I totally feel the same way. I'm a fan of history in both my professional life and in my pastime. And I love discovering things about people from all eras and times. But there's another way of thinking of history which I think is really fascinating about violin. One is, of course, the instrument itself. It's remarkable how it just came fully formed so long ago, like mind bogglingly old invention. And it was basically fully developed into this really powerful expressive tool in, in the Renaissance. How many years since we think like, you know, the earliest violins of Andrea Matti, we're talking 400, more than 400 years ago. That is mind blowing to me. And the violin has changed since, of course. And that's why we have now baroque violins and classical violins and modern violins. And so that's one side of it. The other side of it is we all have a history with the violin since we first discovered it. Probably an early age, through adolescence. And then three of us, we discovered baroque violin halfway through that period. And that completely changed how we view the instrument. And for me personally, I knew of baroque violence. I didn't have the chance to play one until I went to study in Europe. And then in Europe I discovered it's not just baroque violence. You can play classical violin, you can play romantic violin. That was. That was incredible to me. And when I discovered that, I said, oh my goodness, why would I not ever play a violin this way? So, yes, the violin is a tool and it's an interface, I find between our musicianship and what people perceive it is remarkably and famously difficult instrument, probably one of the most difficult instruments that there is. So it is a really steep learning curve at the beginning. And then, as Simone says, you start discovering all the possibilities which are not, not just the stereotypical beautiful long lines, but you can do all sorts of, really all sorts of emotions. Every emotion is in the violin. But you really have to start asking questions of the tool and of your music, like what do you want to say with this? And how do you best say it so that the people on the other side understand it? And that is a history too. And even just this last year, I find since you very kindly asked us to prepare these concertos, I've learned so much about me and my music and the violin already just by opening these pieces, these pages and looking through them. So that's how I would look at the art of violin. Just the history of the instrument and the history of our expression through time since we started playing and where we are now. [00:07:22] Speaker B: It sounds like you two have a very similar way of thinking about what is the art of the violin. You know, you've both mentioned this amazing long history of the instrument and you've both mentioned the incredible capacity for expression that the violin can give. And that is our job, isn't it? To take this thing that was invented almost 500 years ago, as you said, Raf, and to see what we can do with it and what we can say with it. I think that's the tip of a very big iceberg of what it means, the art of violin. And as you mentioned before, I completely agree, Raph. It is one of the most difficult instruments out of any of the instruments out there. And if you don't believe me, ladies and gentlemen, just try picking up a violin and playing in tune. I mean, you know, there are no keys, there are no frets, there's nothing. And someone once told me once that there are keys on the violin, they're just invisible. Anyway, tell me both, when did you start playing the violin? I want to know a little bit about your journey with this instrument. Again, throwing it over to you, Simone, tell me about your journey with the violin. When did you meet a violin, at what age? And how did you end up as a professional violinist? [00:08:34] Speaker A: Well, look, I honestly don't really know. The very beginning. I grew up in a music loving family and my father was a really natural musician, but untrained. He was a singer songwriter, but it wasn't like I was surrounded by people playing instruments. And that was sort of the logical conclusion for me. But I believe that around the age of seven, I was taken to see the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra. I grew up in Adelaide and my understanding is that I came home that night and I said to my mum, I'm going to learn either the violin or the flute. And she said, you're going to learn the violin? Because she wasn't a huge fan of the flute. And so thus it was decided. And so I began initially with pretty generic Suzuki training and I wasn't a huge fan of the Suzuki method as a kid, but nonetheless I persisted and I was. I was one of these, I think, quite unusual children in the sense that my mum never had to tell me to practice. I always understood that it was my decision to learn an instrument and therefore it was sort of my job to. To do the work that was involved from the beginning. And I actually really enjoyed practicing. My mum always said that I would come out of my bedroom and say, oh, I just feel so energized by doing my violin practice. [00:10:02] Speaker B: And so. [00:10:05] Speaker A: I know I was a pretty weird kid anyway. And so thus it continued on into high school. I was lucky to go to a really fantastic special interest music high school in Adelaide, which really fostered my love of playing with other people in ensembles. And then that went on to being in the Australian Youth Orchestra, which I absolutely adored, and then into my studies at university at Ann AM and so forth. But importantly, alongside all of that, I also had a really, really wonderful, lucky early experience, probably similar 7, 8 age, of having at my school a really beautiful recorder teacher. And so, you know, we're all used to, in Australia at least, having these quite torturous early recorder lesson experiences, compulsory recorder lessons at school, which leave, I think, more people are not kind of hating music and feeling quite traumatized. Baa Baa Black Sheep over and over again or Hot Cross Buns or no. [00:11:08] Speaker B: Accident that they call it the Little Wooden Stick of Doom. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Right, exactly right. So for whatever reason, I didn't have that experience. I had this beautiful woman teaching me the recorder at school and I just loved it and I loved her. So I went on to have private lessons with her. And I often tell this story that I think in many ways this woman was the best music teacher I've ever had because she was so gentle and so patient and she never really told me how to do anything. She just kind of laid the foundation for my. My child's brain to just soak it all in, in the most organic way. And. And thus I sort of flourished and really advanced really quickly on the Recorder and the reason I'm telling you this story is that I had really early exposure to Baroque music in my life. And it was really a part of my musical language from an incredibly young age. I didn't understand at the age of eight that I was playing Baroque music. I just thought I was playing music that I liked. But as I got older, it just sort of naturally crept into my violin playing and my violin world as well. Such that by the time I was at university, I was just, you know, plonked right into the Baroque ensembles and already playing kind of semi professionally with Adelaide Baroque and groups like that. Well before I was actually ready in the sense of playing the technicality of playing a Baroque violin. But because I had the language of the repertoire and that era kind of in my body, I guess it was a very natural progression for me. And so I guess I've been playing Baroque music since I began music in the very beginning. And that's been, I think, a real gift for me in my musical life and just became a very logical thing for me to go into that in a professional sense. So here I am. [00:12:59] Speaker B: Was there ever a moment of doubt that you wouldn't become a professional musician? Violinist? [00:13:04] Speaker A: Not really. It just felt so logical to keep going. I mean, if you put in so much work in those early years into something, why wouldn't you keep going? I think when I was at high school, I liked the idea of having my options open. And I worked really hard in all my subjects to get a good score at the end, such that I could go into law or medicine if I wanted to. But I got to the end of high school and I thought, it's got to be music. [00:13:30] Speaker B: I know. I find that musicians, we are not made, we are born, and nothing and no one is going to stop us from being musicians. Raf, did you. Well, how was your first experience with the violin? Tell me about your journey. [00:13:47] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. It's interesting listening to Simon, because a lot of the things are going to be the same for me. I started playing at five, also at school. I grew up in Caracas, Venezuela. So there is a lot of classical music now in Venezuela. But that was when I was growing up. I knew hardly anything of it. It just so happened that this school I went to, it was a local private school. Like public schools in Venezuela are not very well rated. So most people who can afford it will go to a private school. And this school happened to be founded by a man named Emil Friedman. He was a Czech Jew who fled the Nazis persecutions and the wars he was not only an incredible violinist, an international soloist, but also a pedagogue. He was a doctor in philosophy and he was touring the world. He came to Venezuela, he loved it and decided to stay. And his lifelong goal was to start a school where music was part of the study. So he wasn't trying to make professional musicians, he was trying to make doctors and lawyers and whatever people who grew up playing and knowing music as part of holistic education, which is beautiful. And now nowadays we understand everyone should do that, right? And you can find, you can hardly find a public school in Sydney that doesn't have a string program. But that was pre revolutionary. We're talking about the 1940s, 50s. So I went to this school and pretty quickly realized that most of the kids just play violin. So I saw some of my classmates leaving the classroom to go to the lessons and I want to do that. I want to get out of here. And so I picked up the violin. My dad was a music lover as well. He used to play the organ in his teens. My grandfather was a big fan of opera. He had a big collection of LPs of Maracalas and all this stuff. So there was a bit of music in my family. No one was a serious musician and there was just people like to listen to him. And I turned out I had a bit of talent and facility for it. I was singing the school's choir too. And then later on I discovered that all this time I was listening to a recording that my dad, he was an engineer and he worked for a while as an audio engineer. And he was one of the audio technicians in this particular recording of Cupran's concert. Brilliant. The only recording, as far as I know, of period instruments ever made in Venezuela. He made that recording when I was, when I was young. And he put it on it, put it on the stereo and I was listening to this beautiful baroque French music on period instruments without knowing what it was. So later on I started like, like Simone. I was also. I wasn't following the Suzuki method, but we were using the Suzuki books at school. So, you know, you start with all those gavottes and minuets and stuff, and then you move on to the Vivaldi concert. And I immediately loved Vivaldi, still one of my favorite composers ever. And of course Four Seasons really came up. And on this CD that was constantly a player home was Turbo Pinoccht and Simon Standage's Four Seasons recording. Grammy winning recording, I'm pretty sure from the 80s as well. So awesome, pure instruments. I Didn't know what that was. I was trying to play along as I was. It sounds so out of tune. Yeah. So I played through school. I had some talent for it. I didn't practice much. I just had a good year for it, I suppose. And so I was leading some of the orchestras and stuff. And when it came time to decide what to study, I didn't know any musicians. Most of my family were engineers and I was pretty good at the sciences too. So I said, well, I should try something that makes money, because again, if you don't know any musicians and stereotype is, what do you do for a living? Thank you. A musician. So I went and did two years of engineering. I aced the creative subjects that are in the first year. And as soon as there was all science and math, I said, this is too cold, I can't do this. I need a creative outlet in my life. So I kept playing the violin till then and then. So I found a new teacher and then started talking to people who were musicians. And then everyone said, no, you need to go study abroad. You can go to America, where it's very technical, or you can go to Europe, where there's a bit more history. I said, well, that sounds. This is what people talked about back home. Of course. Of course. It's much more nuanced than this. So I have to go to Europe. I was. I'd already learned a little bit about period instruments. I used to play in an orchestra, like a small chamber orchestra, semi professional, where we did a lot of baroque music, more than instruments, which is what we had. But we were aware of the style. We were listening to recordings. So by this, by then I knew, like, for example, of Rachel Podger's beautiful set of sonatas and patitas. I was listening to this too. So I looked her up. She studied in Guilhall in London. Okay, that's where I'm going. And. And that's what happened. I went there and as soon as I could, I met Pablo Businessieuk, who. Who was giving Baroque violin lessons there. I borrowed the volume Violin from school and here I am. [00:19:01] Speaker B: That's fantastic. I love that story. It's incredible, isn't it? How I love the fact that you said that you just wanted to be like all the other cool kids, and those cool kids were carrying violins. Can you imagine a primary school kid saying that these days? Oh, gosh, if only. That would be just so cool, wouldn't it? And isn't it amazing how all three of us had an exposure to the Suzuki Method when we were kids, it just goes to show what an amazing influence those books have had and still have. [00:19:32] Speaker C: I think had a great year for. For. For tunes. And he somehow understood the power of. Of how accessible and baroque music is to kids. Like is. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right, because, you know, in books one, two and three, there's. There's a very heavy slant on baroque, which is probably no accident. And very, very savvy. Yeah, it's amazing how that Suzuki method featured as well for me in my early childhood. I mean, my journey to becoming a violinist started at Lane Cove Primary School here in Sydney. And the only reason I play the violin is because mum went up to the school people and said, what instrument can my child have for free? And it just so happens that there was a bunch of violins there. So my sister and myself got given violins and off we went and we joined a Suzuki violin group. So there was lots of us in a room and we just had to sort of stick the violins under our chin and figure it out. But I was absolutely captivated by those early Bach minuets and then the Vivaldi concertos, as you said, because they're exciting and they're beautiful, which, you know, really captivated me. And it may. It's no surprise, Raf, that you had an engineering background, because one of the things I love about you is the way you approach things from such a sort of scholastic, academic point of view. And that. That's part of the reason I think my group benefits so much for having people like yourself in it, because it infuses the group with so much scholarship and background care and dedication, which can only make us better. [00:21:06] Speaker C: Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. I. I don't think that I necessarily have a scholarly approach. In fact, that was one of the things I struggled with in university. But there is a. So, like science trying to understand the basis of what I'm doing. And the other thing, like I said, like, I struggle with the science degree because I like creativity. I feel like I'm an improviser, but I'm. Somehow I feel the way my brain works is good at producing something spontaneously first and then trying to understand, okay, what. How did my. What is the logical process that led me there, even though it was first spontaneous, you know, so I deconstruct and understand after I've done the instinctive thing. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Well, I think it's amazing you figured out the way your brain works, because I sure. [00:22:00] Speaker A: You think that's such a thing about early musicians in general. I don't think anyone would be in this historically informed performance world unless they were really curious to understand more. I mean, we don't have to play baroque music. We could just keep going in the sort of more standard direction of many of our colleagues. And that's a wonderful direction. But I think we're all drawn to this world because we really want to know more about what we're doing, more about the space score, more about the history. We want to ask questions, we want to experiment. And I think we're just innately curious people. [00:22:35] Speaker B: That's right. And I think that's probably a huge part of the reason that all three of us, having all trained on the modern violin as we did, and gone overseas and studied it and learned all of our Tchaikovsky's and everything else, but all three of us kept coming back to this way of playing and also exploring what it meant and how it feels to play. Those old instruments, which are unwieldy, they're uncomfortable, go out of tune all the time, and they're a bit like sort of driving an old, old Jaguar E Type, which you have to sort of. Not that I've ever done that, a dream of mine, but we get to grips with it and then you find that you're sort of playing this amazing instrument. But we wouldn't have bothered, would we, if we weren't curious. And I think that is, like you said, a wonderful thing about early musicians in general, or historically informed performance practice. It fires your brain and it always has me, and I know it has the both of you. [00:23:27] Speaker A: And we never know enough. I think that's something I really love, is that no matter how much research you do, you will never know everything there is to know. Or, I mean, enough. Maybe it's not the right term, but there's always more to know. And that is simultaneously terrifying, but also really exhilarating and exciting. [00:23:44] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:23:45] Speaker C: You've got to be comfortable. You've got to be comfortable with that fact that you might not know the answer to many of the questions, and yet somehow you have to come up. [00:23:53] Speaker A: With something convincing, authentic, as much as it can be historically, but also authentic to yourself. [00:23:59] Speaker B: But authentic can mean spontaneous and improvised. That is authenticity, I think, in its most pure form, it's coming directly from us. How we feel on the day we have these notes that we've performed, people have performed for hundreds of years. But it's us, isn't it? It's who we are as people. Our whole history, our whole childhood, everything comes into that spontaneous moment on stage. [00:24:21] Speaker A: Yes, we're human beings at the end of the day. And surely one of our main roles as artists and musicians is to really embrace that and to offer the audience the chance to really sit in their humanity as well, to share a moment of humanity and to take them on this journey through all these different emotions. I mean, one of the things I love about the Baroque era, and there's so many things we could really bang on about that all day, but that it was such a point in history where art and music was really teaching people how to exist about morals and life and. Yeah. How to exist on this planet as a human being. It really was. It was teaching us, and it still is to this day. We just don't necessarily think about it in the same way as consciously. [00:25:09] Speaker B: That's really true. I think one of the huge roles that art has to play in our lives, if not the greatest role art has to play in our lives, is to show us ourselves, isn't it? It's to show us who we are and make us think and feel. And the violin. What an instrument. In order to do that. As part of this program's research, I was looking into the origins of the violin and why that particular instrument has become the most successful solo instrument of all time. I did some googling, and I found out that there are more concertos written for the violin than any other instrument in all genres. And I'm just sort of. I'd love to get your point of view on why that's actually come to pass over the centuries. [00:25:54] Speaker C: I think part of that is the. The confluence of. Of the register. Of course, it's a big part of that with the style of music that was coming up. And the fact that at the time before industrialization, somehow I really don't understand this. But the violin is just an incredible piece of engineering. Right. And it's kept improving since it was invented. But it's what we're referring to at the beginning, the way the violin creates sound. You draw a ball. Curses strings and the string vibrates the bridge. And then the bridge, which goes through very, very complex shape of. Made of wood for different woods. And has been perfected down to the millimeter in every proportion and every direction. To create such a powerful sound from such a small gesture before amplification. The fact that a violin, like a soloist, can compete against a whole orchestra and feel a concert hall. And they knew this from the very beginning. Like cathedrals have existed longer than violins have. And somehow the violin, as soon as they came into the scene, dominated the cathedral. Everyone could hear over the whole congregation singing and over the giant pipe organ. The size of a building. It is an incredible piece of technology, I find. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the sheer decibel level that can come out of a violin is quite staggering. For those of you who don't know out there, you can get over 120, 130 decibels out of a violin or the really, really, really, really good Italian ones. It's amazing. You have to be careful sometimes, don't you? [00:27:45] Speaker C: Oh, yes, yes. [00:27:46] Speaker B: And Simone, what do you think? [00:27:48] Speaker A: Oh, well, I think without knowing the answer, of course, as with so many things, I think it comes back to what we were discussing in the beginning. I just think the, the expressive capacity of this instrument is kind of unmatched. You know, not only can we play multiple notes at once, not just two, three, up to four notes at once, we can also play incredibly sustained lines and we can play incredibly high and, and quite low. Not incredibly low, but, you know, low enough. And yeah, like I was saying, you know, percussive and short and harsh sounding, but incredibly dolce and sweet. And I just think there's. There's almost nothing this instrument can't do. We can do harmonics, we can do not. They were necessarily exploring this much in that era, although they were certain extent, but extended techniques, bouncing on the wood of the bow and soltasto and Sil Ponticello. And I just feel like that must have been so exciting for the composers of the time to be able to write for an instrument that can kind of go anywhere you want it to go. And I think another really key thing is that because it was such a popular instrument, many of the composers of the day were also quite virtuosic violinists themselves. So they had a really good understanding of the instrument and technically and how it worked and thus were able to write for it in a really, really wonderful way that just feels very organic and natural to play. So I'm sure that that plays into it to a certain extent. But yeah, for me it's just what can't the violin do, really? [00:29:30] Speaker B: What can't it do? Indeed. And it was the instrument in the Baroque period, way before instruments like the cello were, for example. I mean, you just have to look at the Bach solo sonatas and partitas, which are just such sophisticated works of composition. You know, the four part fugues and the Chacon compared. No disrespect to our lovely cellists out there, but the cello suites don't involve such complexity, do they? So it just goes to show you in the hands of a master like Bach, how far forward and prominent the violin was in that world. And, you know, composers such as Vivaldi that, you know, they really launched the violin into even more prominence. I mean, didn't he write 253 violin concertos or something like that? Maybe even more. Yes, the most famous of which, of course, are the Four Seasons. And in the, you know, this piece just changed life for violinists from that second. And I know we all know it, but here is a little bit of the Four Seasons played on a baroque violin just so we can marvel at what Vivaldi did with this amazing instrument. And that was a little snippet of the last movement of, of course, Vivaldi's Four Seasons. That was the last movement of Summer performed by Elizabeth Valfish and our very own Paul Dyer and the Australian Brandenburg Orchestra. Yeah, those Four Seasons changed things forever for the violin. [00:31:21] Speaker C: I feel it's really fascinating how it was only rediscovered recently, half in the last century and it's already one of the most recorded works of music ever. [00:31:31] Speaker B: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it was performed, recording was performed on a baroque violin. And I'd like to ask you about your instruments. What are we going to hear in this next program? What, what are you going to be both playing on? Simone, tell me about your beautiful violin. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Well, I'll be playing on my really wonderful Claude Pierre violin, which I call Claude. His name is Claude and Claude was made in 1726 in Paris. And so Pierret, I believe, was quite a famous maker in his time and his instruments are really, really highly regarded. So I'm very, very lucky to have an instrument made by him. And the story of how I got it is quite interesting. I've had it for nearly 10 years now. I believe I've sort of lost track of time. But for a long time I'd just been borrowing baroque violins because I wasn't sure, you know, how much it would be part of my professional life. And it's a huge expense buying a second violin along with all the bows and extra bits and pieces you need. But the time came for me to get my own instrument. And so I was traveling around Europe and I had, I don't think, maybe a month I was doing some work and then in between the work periods, I was just madly traveling around to all the luthiers and auction houses and trying every instrument, instrument I could get my hands on. And nothing was right. Nothing was right. Nothing was right. And you really, you get a strong sense about this sort of thing pretty quickly with instruments. And I had. I was feeling a bit despondent about the whole process. And I had one day left before I had to fly home. And I was in Paris and I went to this very famous street, Rue de Rome, where nearly every street is an instrument maker or seller of some kind. And it's, yeah, on one hand, really cool and exciting, but also kind of terrifying and overwhelming. And so I went into. To one particular shop that I had been recommended to go into, and I said, oh, you know, hi, this is who I am and where I'm from and what I'm looking for. And I believe they kind of looked at me and thought, oh, yeah, some nice Australian girl probably doesn't take it very seriously. So they brought out some pretty average baroque violins. And I made it clear that I wasn't just looking for an instrument set up in baroque. I was looking for all sorts of things that might work as a baroque instrument. Anyway, it was clear to me that they weren't taking me seriously. So I had to play the game in a sort of Parisian fashion. So I had to do a little bit of name dropping. I was like, oh, you know, oh, I've just been at the Wigmore hall playing with blah, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, oh, oh, wow. Okay. Well, actually, we did just get this instrument brought in yesterday by someone. It's out the back. We'll go grab it. So they brought this instrument out and they gave it to me. And I knew instantly. I was like, oh, my God, this is the one. I've got to have it. And it was set up as a modern violin. But I quickly got out my gut strings and strung it up. And I could tell that it was going to really sing with these gut strings and at the lower pitch, like it really wanted to be there. And so I basically said on the spot, I'm like, okay, I'm buying this violin. And the shop owner was like, oh, no, no, no, no. This violin, it can't go to Australia. No, no, it's not. No, it has to stay here. You can't take it. You can't take it to Australia. And I was like, no, I'm buying this violin. And I had to be so pushy about it. Like, they really didn't want it to leave France for this random island in the south, you know. But I pushed and pushed, and eventually I convinced them that I should have the violin. And I broug. And I don't know the full history of this instrument, but I know that before I bought it. It was owned by a woman who lived in Paris. So it was there for at least, let's say 50 years. But I have this sort of strong gut feeling that it never really left France, maybe it never even left Paris in its life until I bought it. And now it's been to some really radical places and I've taken it into the rainforest in Vanuatu and into the desert of Australia and it's been up volcanoes and it's been in some pretty wild places with me. So Claude and I are quite adventurous, but it's the reason I was able to afford this instrument as a performer and not just a collector, because the pra instruments are pretty pricey, is because he was obviously experimenting a little bit with this instrument with a bigger size. So it's quite a fat instrument. So it's kind of wide from the belly to the top and it's a little bit longer as well. I mean, we're talking really fractional differences. But these differences matter to collectors and museums. So a collector doesn't want an odd sized instrument, they want an instrument of these sort of perfect dimensions that were kind of being discovered at that time. And so it will never be a museum piece. It is therefore a musician's violin. It's meant to be played by a performer and not sitting in a glass case. And so I was able to get it for a sort of outrageously good price and bring it home. And it's been with me ever since. And it's an absolute privilege to play on an instrument of that age. You know, it blows my mind that my violin is older than white colonised Australia. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Well, dare I say it, I think musicians, the instruments need to be played. [00:37:16] Speaker A: And they have to be played. Exactly. I mean, how much better is it that I have an instrument that is being played and not in a glass case? [00:37:22] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:37:23] Speaker A: So I feel like every time I open the case, you know, I'm holding a piece of history and it's such a gift and a privilege. [00:37:30] Speaker B: And we are custodians of these instruments, aren't we? We are but one person in a long, long history of these instruments life. And we still don't know how long these instruments will last, do we? The Amatis are still being played, aren't they? Some of the first violins. And who knows when their sell by date will be up, up. We don't know yet. But we are one person in a long line of history, aren't we? That's how I feel. We are custodians. What do you think, Raf? [00:37:59] Speaker C: Well, we, I was just gonna add to Simonster, like we play these beautiful instruments that are works in, of art in themselves. Right. The construction of a violin takes so much time and effort and expertise. So what comes out? Yes, and what was coming out 4, 3, 3, 400 years ago are these absolutely gorgeous objects that because of that have become collectors items as well. And that drives the price insanely high these days. And that means that unfortunately, most of us can't afford an instrument of that age. Unless it's like Simone's saying, like there's something peculiar odd, or the maker's name is not on the instrument or is some kind of like, what did they call it? Like a Frankenstein of instrument with different parts. This is the only way we can afford an instrument like this. So my violin, I don't actually play an old instrument for that reason. That was just exposing. There's another good reason to play a modern made instrument, which is, if you think about it, when baroque performers were playing on these violins, they were new violins back then. So not to say there's anything. I mean all violins are beautiful and all that history that come with this is absolutely amazing. When you pick one up and play, you can feel it and inspires you to play a certain way. But there's something special to play a newly made instrument purpose built for a baroque performance. Most of these old instruments have also been modified since this time. I don't believe there's any Stradivarius violin that we know of that is in original condition. They all were modified through their life. And so when I was looking for a violin, I was very much set. I tried everything that I could get my hands on as well. But I was pretty much set into the idea that I had to get a new instrument because it's what I could afford. And what would get me closest to this idea of an instrument that was built, purpose built for Baroque music. And it's always been a Baroque violin. So I knew someone who made, who played an instrument by this maker. His name is Stefan Novak. He's German born, but he trained in the Newark School of Violin Making in England and he settled in Bristol. So I knew, I knew my friend's violin. I think I knew it was a very good violin. He had a very distinct character. I remember we just, we were recording something on a. In a church and he was just playing these double strips and I was walking around just looking at the church and I had. What is he singing on his playing me? Like he was playing door steps or something. And I Swear I thought he was singing because the violin was standing so vocal. It really sounded like singing. I told no, it's just this violin. I said, well, there's something really special with this violin. It sounds different from every violin I've heard. I need to go and try one. So I wrote to the maker, do you have any violins? He said, yeah, I have one here in my workshop. If you come to Bristol, you're welcome to try. So I did that, caught a train from London where I was studying. I went to his workshop and there was this violin here. It's a copy of, or what we call a copy, but there's a bit more detail to that, which I'll explain in a second. It was inspired on an instrument by Nicola Amati. So third generation of the Amati family from 1666. The original violin belonged to a violinist in England and it was a modern setup. So he recreated our best approximation for baroque setup based on all the instruments from other makers that are still in original condition, which is not many, very, very few examples. So it is a pretty much a baroque violin set up for like end of the 17th century style. The neck is a little bit thinner and the fingerboard a little bit longer, which makes it usable in later periods as well. So I can play up to Mozart with it. So it is a very bright and very powerful violin and I, because of that setup, actually, the first time I tried it, I didn't. I wasn't entirely convinced. I took it for a test. He let me take it to London. I was playing some gigs with it. I wasn't sure about it. I returned it and then I went back to. At that time I moved to the Hague and I was playing on my more than violin, on God, strong on God. And I kept looking and then tried some violins in Europe and whatnot. And then he made another violin and he wrote, I have a. I made another violin violin, a Steiner copy. I went to Bristol for a different gig and I got to try the Steiner. It was closer to my friend's violin. But then I said, do you still have the Amati here? So yeah, here it is. And lucky for me, he was a violinist himself. So we were in the concert hall, I was playing this gig and in the concert hall he played the Amati and he played the Steiner and I liked the Amati more again. And I said, well, I need. Let's play with this. I wore it again. I found some really thick God strings, more in the 17th century style. And that's when the violin transformed and I found that voice that was really special, really different. And I said, well, I think this is my violin now. [00:43:02] Speaker B: That's beautiful. Isn't it amazing how all three of us have had that experience where person meets violin. And I know it's a cliche, but it is like falling in love when you meet your person and you don't know it till it happens. And then when it does happen, you're like, yep, that's it. That is the actual real thing. And I have had the same experience when I went to that famous violin shop, Beers in London to try to find a violin as well. And I, you know, like you guys, I've been searching around as well. And fortunately, Simone, this will make you laugh. In order for them to take me seriously as a buyer, I had to bring with me a former employee of Beers who knew the directors very well. And she marched into the room and folded her arms with a stern look on their face and they went, ah, okay, you know. And I also brought with me a couple of well known musicians around London who they would have known as well. So I managed to get the good instruments straight away out on the table. And I played lots of different ones. I played a viome, I think a cerrutti and this and that, and then this Grancino was on the table. And I made sure I played the same piece of music, the same two or three pieces of music on each violin so I could compare. But honestly, I mean, it was, was, it was just mad. The second I picked that up and started playing, the entire room went silent and this hush just fell on the room. The director just said, that's your violin. And I said, yep, I know. And I second guessed myself. I'm like, did that really happen? I don't know. Was that actually the real thing? So I took the Grand Chino and the Ceruti, actually, and I went to a few concert halls around London and made sure I played them in all different situations. But even though the Grancino wasn't as expensive as the Cerutti, it just was me. That's everything I'd ever wanted to say on a violin. That instrument had it. And then came about this mad scramble of trying to raise eleventy billion pounds in an insanely short amount of time. And like a lot of instruments, a lot of instrumentalists, we have to sometimes have more than one person who owns it. And that's what I did. In the end. I put together this big syndicate of people who I am gradually buying out because they're collector's items. As you say, Simone, they are living, breathing works of art, and there is only one of them. And my violin was made in 1682, which is three years before Bach was even born. Oh, God. The history of that violin. And sadly, I don't know anything about the violin. And they were really adamant in that shop about not telling me who was the seller. I'm like, please, please, please give me their phone number. I just want to have a chat. [00:45:49] Speaker A: No. [00:45:50] Speaker C: What do you know about Grantino Giovanni Grancino? [00:45:53] Speaker B: Well, this one is actually Fratelli Grancino. And what I know about those two were they Francesco and Giovanni were working in the mid to late 1600s in Milano. Hugely famous Milanese violin school. Grancino. Sorry. Giovanni Grancino actually taught Testore. He was his most famous pupil. And that kind of went on from there. But the Grandcino family fell into ruin because I believe it was Giovanni Grandcino II ended up having a major duel in the town square with a member of the Lavazza family. Who knows if it was the Coffee family. I don't know, possibly. And Giovanni ended up murdering one of the Lavazza family, and he had to run away and take refuge in the church, otherwise he would have been hungry. And after that, the fortunes of the family fell dramatically, and they never recovered. So there's quite a lot of history involved in the Grancino family. But I love my violin more than I even have words in the English language to say. It's incredible the way the instrument connects with us emotionally, isn't it, for the three of us, the way we are so connected to that violin, you know, the way you feel about a child or a beloved pet or your other half. That's how I feel about the viol. [00:47:13] Speaker C: Yeah. It's like a real relationship, too. Just like a real relationship. I find that you change and the violin changes and you have to adapt to each other. Like, it's not. Like, for me, like, I wouldn't say it was like, when I. Like I described in my story, it wasn't love at first sight or first hearing. And even when I bought it, I knew this was an ongoing relationship that we would have to work on, because we all have an ideal, idealized sound of violin in our brains. But that violin doesn't exist. Whatever you find is like, it's terrible, but it's good enough. That's where it was for me. Like, okay, this is a violin I can find a sound with. I can work with and beautiful violin, of course, but it's taken me a lot of time and growing, too. I Wasn't a fully fledged violinist then. I still feel like I'm not. We're still learning and discovering things. Yeah, it's a beautiful. This goes back to where we started conversation is the history that history. We all have a history with our instincts, instruments, and it's constantly changing and evolving. Just one more thing that I wanted to mention though. I think we're doing a disservice to the art of the violin if we don't talk about the other side of the coin, which is the bow. Right. I think what's special about the violin is that it is a bowed instrument. Right. There were. There have always been string instruments through history, ancient. But what's special about the violin is how the bow interacts with the kind of sound is like a wind instrument. Like in the sense that you can make a sound, a breathy sound that can last forever, but it can be infinitely shaped and you still have the strings that you have physical contact with. And maybe the bow is what peaked in the Baroque period for me, because early, early bows were just pieces of stick with hair tied to it and the beautiful shapes that we finally find the Baroque. And of course it later evolves into different things and more than classical bows or whatnot. But that is. Is maybe also why the violin became so prominent in the Baroque. Because the bow got to the level that the violin itself was. And so one of the things I have discovered in my history with this violin is I found a bow that I love and that I really like to play. So the bow I'm using right now, which I will use for the concerto, is a copy of one of the bows that survived. Giuseppe Tartini, the famous violinist, he left two bows when he died and they're in a museum in Italy. And there's this beautiful. For bow maker Antonino Identi, who's based in Italy. And he's looked after these bows and he went to the museum, he measured every detail and then try them and then he makes these gorgeous copies. And I got one from him very recently after trying one by another copy by a colleague. It's a clip on bow, which means there's no screw to adjust the hair. It's a very long bow for baroque bow, but it's based on a 17th century design. If you compare it to very much earlier French bows, it's the same shape, tip is just longer, very, very light, super sensitive to every nuance. And since I got this bow with this violin and I'm still experimenting with strings, I think that's. That's where I'm at. I'm really enjoying this setup and I, I really looking forward to playing this concerto with this valiant bow. [00:50:28] Speaker B: Thanks for bringing that up, Raf. That is an incredibly good point. The bow is our breath, isn't it? And you're right when, when you talk about the bow being perfected at that time. I mean, as Baroque violinists, all we need to do is draw the bow over the string and it phrases for us, doesn't it? It's got that natural arc, the mesta de voce, built in, which is so vocal, isn't it? [00:50:48] Speaker C: Yeah. And all the, all the different articulation like, like when we try to play with a Baroque, we're trying to speak, aren't we? Like, like all the beautiful consonants, strong and weak, and all the languages of Italian and French and, and German. All this stuff that Baroque does beautifully. And later, Bose, sacrifice some of that in favor of power and legato. [00:51:07] Speaker B: Legato. You're absolutely right. Yeah. And don't you find when you're teaching, you have to fight the heavy tip of a modern bow? You have to fight it all the time, don't you? To get a student to lighten up. So I always have a few Baroque vines lurking around at school, give my students. But how about we talk about these pieces we're playing? Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the repertoire we're going to perform in this next concert series. Now, I chose these concertos and you both have very kindly agreed to play them. But I feel these five composers are the real titans of the Baroque. And with these pieces, they really propelled music forwards and inspired all who came after them. Simone. So tell me, how does it feel to be preparing these two concertos, the Handel and the Telemann? [00:51:55] Speaker A: Oh, to prepare them. Well, preparing a piece of music is such a journey, generally speaking. I won't, I won't talk to that now, otherwise he'll be here all day. But specifically these pieces, it's been really interesting actually, because I'm playing two concertos on the program, one by Handel and one by Telemann. And yeah, they're very different pieces. The Handel concerto, I really was not familiar with it at all. And in fact, it's not a well known concerto at all. I believe Handel only wrote two concertos for the violin. And this is, is the only one that really gets played very much at all, is my understanding. And even then it hardly gets played. And I think that's probably for a number of reasons, but one may be that it's not a particularly flashy virtuosic concerto at all. It's really much more in a style, I guess you could say of a concerto grosso where there's. The interplay between soloists and orchestra is really, really important. There's a lot of. Of sort of call and response or interplay between the parts. A lot of playing together. The soloist and the orchestra play a lot of similar material and there's a couple of flashy moments in the last movement but even then it's nowhere near the sort of flashiness of the Valdi, for example. But what it does have is this really beautiful vocal cord quality that I think Handel is quite famous for. So, you know, you think of Handel's incredible operas and the arias. The vocal writing in his operas is so incredibly exquisite and so too are the instrumental moments and solos that happen in those operas. And then of course his chamber repertoire, his violin sonatas, I mean they're just so incredible. They're such an incredible example of, of yeah, that vocal quality of the violin. So I guess that's what I've been really trying to explore with that particular concerto which has been really, really wonderful because I, I think when we think of violin concertos we automatically think flashy Vivaldi, lots of fast notes zipping around, showing off because we can do that with the violin and it's fun and people love it and it's kind of what they expect. So this is going to be something very, very different and I think it'll be offer a moment of something quite unique in the program and then the Teleman. I'm a huge fan of Telemann's music. I've always loved it. Harking back to my recorder days, I guess I would have played a lot of Telemann on the recorder and his concertos are just so fun. There are more than 20 I think that he wrote. So there's quite a selection. And again I'm playing one that's not particularly well known tone. It's in a minor key, the key of A minor. Yeah, the first movement is, is not virtuosic either but again it has this really very beautiful sung quality to it and it's full of pathos, this sort of dissonance of chords and the resolution and it's kind of playing with that that's really, really fun. And then it's got a couple of faster, more flashy movements which really just. I don't know, when I listen to Telemann and these concertos, I just want to dance around the room basically there's some there's something so, so light in them. I mean there's, there's the heaviness of the emotion as well, but there's a lightness to his music that just makes me feel so joyous. Even in the key of A minor I can still feel joy with Telaman, so that's saying something. So that's basically just really fun to learn. So between the two it's a lot to explore and I hope that I can find a really different quality between the two concertos. That's sort of my, I think my main, main job in preparing two different works by different composers, which is a great, a great challenge. [00:55:54] Speaker B: I think you hit on something really fabulous. Then when you were talking about how the Handel concerto isn't like a typical violin concerto, even though it was written by an absolute master of the same period. I mean he was one of the class of 85, wasn't he? 1685, same as Violet Bach, same era and Telemann. But that concerto is so unique, isn't it? And he packed in all those themes which he then used in everything else he ever played. And for me, that Telemann is extraordinary. For those of you who haven't heard the beginning of the Telemann, it has one of the most heartfelt, spooky, pathos filled openings I think I've ever heard. It really, really blew my mind and it gave me even more respect for this extraordinary composer. In fact, let's just hear a little bit of the opening of the Tailorman just so you can hear quite how extraordinary this work really is. So there you have the extraordinary opening of Georg Tillemann's Violin Concerto in A minor TWV51A1 performed by Elizabeth Welfish and the Vulfish Band. Isn't that amazing? I mean the harmonic invention that he managed to get into that opening movement is incredible. And Raf, tell me about how you feel about this LeClaire and your journey with this and how you feel about leclair as a great exponent of the violin. [00:57:52] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I have a very particular relationship with leclerc. The fact that he is a French violinist who trained in Italy and had a very personal way of combining these two national styles. Of course he wasn't the only one doing it. All the composers who are playing in this program basically did that. Bach, Tellerman, Handel, they all, they all geniuses in the way they found their own style by grabbing elements from all of these. But I find in leclerc's music is, is in a way more obvious because it is an Italian concerto through and through. And he very much evokes the feeling of those Vivaldi great concertos. And there is some virtuosic passages in it. Not the flashiest. He has more flashy stuff in some of his sonatas. And there is a vocal quality to them too, but it is. The themes are, I find, very Italian, yet the harmony is so French. I love the French hammer in this concerto. And he. We obviously musicians back then, they, since they were children, they were drilling on harmony and singing and counterpoint and improvisation. So of course they. But you still have that little knack in your head that, oh, he's just a violinist composer. No, he was not. He was a genius. Same with Vivali. His music sounds simple, but he knew exactly who is. Like, this is beautiful concerto. And there are so many layers to it. And I'm in my search for my own voice through to this concerto and trying to also then reinterpret what is. Because I love French music and I love Italian music. And, you know, there's the excitement and brushness of the Italian and then the refinement and the grace of the French and then the different ways that both styles ornament. So I'm trying to find my own way through using both. Yeah. And I think it's a great concerto to explore in that sense. [00:59:55] Speaker B: I'm so excited to hear you play this, Raff, and I hope everybody else is too, because you're such an incredible artist and you bring all of that passion and knowledge to this performance of Leclerc Concerto, which isn't often performed. And just so you can get a bit of feel for what Raph was talking about, here is the beginning of this exquisite Leclerc Concerto for you. It that was the opening of the Jean Marie Leclerc Violin Concerto Number 1, Opus 7 in D Minor, performed by Leila Shayeg and La Cetre Baroque Orchestra Basel. So there you have it. We've talked about Handel, Taylormann and Leclerc. We've touched on Vivaldi. But let us circle right back to J.S. bach here. Now, as we know Bach, his oeuvre is huge, isn't it, in terms of his choral music, all those cantatas, all the oratorios. But he did really transform the violin in his own way as well, as did Telemann, as did Vivaldi, as did Leclerc. What Bach did with the violin was transformative, wasn't it? You know, just again, thinking about what he did for the violin as an instrument by writing the six sonatas and partitas he took the violin and really, really hurled it into the future in ways no one else has and has not done since, I think. And his two violin concertos, I mean, there were probably more, weren't there? But I'm sure some have been lost over time. And, you know, these two concertos only survive in part by his student of Penzel, so we don't know if there were more, but what great concertos there are. And the E major, I think, is the real Mount Everest of fiddle concertos. The three that we have. No, the four, the two double concertos, the A minor and the E major. I mean, it's so profound. That slow movement takes you to places which only Bach can take you to with a very restrained profundity and a sense of sadness which he permeates the. Through that beautiful C sharp minor tonality. And then the dance of the rondo, the beautiful three, eight dance that he gets into the end of it. And for me, I know you guys will agree with me here, it's enormously difficult, isn't it? The technical challenges that that E major presents are huge. But every little bit of energy and emotion you put into Bach, he gives you back, doesn't he? Tenfold. [01:02:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:49] Speaker C: It's interesting how he. In a way, he's like opposite Vivaldi or leclerc in that he writes music that sounds easy, but he's difficult. It's very difficult. Vivaldi is flashy. It sounds flashy, and it's actually not quite as hard as it sounds often. And then he did have a knack for writing beautiful slow violin melodies, didn't he? Not just the concertos, but of course, all those obligato arias from the Passions, and then the sonatas, the cantatas. [01:03:18] Speaker B: Yes, yes. In fact, Raf, you are a genius. You took that word, the words, right out of my mouth. I was going to mention what Bach did in the Cantata for the Violin as well. So a composer like Bach, what he did for the art of the violin, it cannot be adequately expressed, I feel. And I'd like to finish this little podcast with a little bit of the opening of the fabulous Bach E Major Concerto, which will close our program. But before I do that, I would just like to thank the both of you so much for joining me on our podcast, Talking Bach. And I just cannot wait to perform and present this program, the Art of the Violin with you both. Growth very soon. Thank you so much. [01:03:59] Speaker A: Thanks, Maddie. Looking forward to it. [01:04:01] Speaker C: Thank you. Me too. Very excited. [01:04:29] Speaker B: And that beautiful version of the Bach E Major Concerto, you Just Heard was performed by Gottfried von der Goltz and the incredible Freiberger Baroque Orchestra. Bach Academy Australia will be performing the Art of Violin, firstly on Friday, 26th of September at 7:30pm in the Utzon Room of the Sydney Opera House, then on Saturday, September 27, 5pm at the Wollongong Conservatorium of Music, and lastly on Sunday, September 28, 2:30pm at St. Finbar's Church, Glenbrook in the Blue Mountains. And for those of you who haven't been to this particular church, in my opinion it is a jewel of the mountains with one of the best acoustics I have ever played in. We very much hope to see you there to explore the art of violin. [01:05:44] Speaker C: Sam.